4/6 Remove Curse (Chivalry)

[PaithanTheElf]

Since the other thread keeps getting derailed I wanted specific input on this spell.

Remove curse has about a .25 second cast and can remove all curses/debuffs from a mage or necro mage. This casts as fast or faster than a weaken. All of the other debuffs that actually help mages/necros have a much longer cast.

How come a spell that is that fast can remove all of these: strangle, oath, corpse skin, omen, curse, weaken, feeble, clumsy (i am leaving other debuffs off you should get the idea).

Can anybody give a reason as to why they think that the removing spell should be way faster than the original counter part spell (curse). To be able to be as powerful as an apple and cast that fast (apples have timers for a reason) is just not logical. The cast time needs to go up.

Give me a solid reason as to why a necro should have to take a long time to cast all of their debuffs and a chiv char could remove ALL of them in .25 seconds.

Only valid arguments on how you think it is or is not fair. Thanks.

 

[GarthGrey]

Since you want mages to be able to freely curse anyone in preparation for a deadly spell combo, I would like paladins to get new spells, like Hit lower Defense, Hit Lower Attack, Hit Mana drain, you know, "before" they actually hit you with the wpn which may or may not cause the desired effect, and usually only benefits them on the 2nd hit they dish out, that is, if they ever hit you again anyway. This may be a stupid request, I don't know, but it can't be any stupider than slowing down paladins because YOU failed to insta kill one. Not to derail your thread though, although I'm sure you wont get a warning for creating a duplicate thread, yet I"ll get one for "trolling" your duplicate.

 

[OREOGL]

I'd like to test this really, before making a decision.

It is supposed to be affected by skill, karma, and number of debuffs the person has.

It may not need nerfed, just fixed as it was intended to be.

To say it removes everything without having played it for a while, original poster included, leaves some room for testing.

Is it fast? Yeah, but if you have to cast it three times then it's a wash.

If it's a matter of "but he keeps removing my debuff" then the request seems ridiculous.

I won't be able to test until tonight. I'll make an informed opinion then.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

Since you want mages to be able to freely curse anyone in preparation for a deadly spell combo, I would like paladins to get new spells, like Hit lower Defense, Hit Lower Attack, Hit Mana drain, you know, "before" they actually hit you with the wpn which may or may not cause the desired effect, and usually only benefits them on the 2nd hit they dish out, that is, if they ever hit you again anyway. This may be a stupid request, I don't know, but it can't be any stupider than slowing down paladins because YOU failed to insta kill one. Not to derail your thread though, although I'm sure you wont get a warning for creating a duplicate thread, yet I"ll get one for "trolling" your duplicate.

This thread is not about me failing to kill any one. This thread is asking why you think a .25 second cast should be able to remove multiple spells- all of which have a much longer cast time. I also forgot to note that all of the mage and necromancy spells have a cost of 240 skill points to cast vs 120 for chiv to remove. You are welcome to respond with a legit reason- my guess is you can't come up with one.

But, yes, I will start reporting for trolling posts as I asked for valid arguments. This is not a duplicate post. The other thread was about chivalry as a whole (which all needs a nerf) this thread is specifically about remove curse. Thank you.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

I'd like to test this really, before making a decision.

It is supposed to be affected by skill, karma, and number of debuffs the person has.

It may not need nerfed, just fixed as it was intended to be.

To say it removes everything without having played it for a while, original poster included, leaves some room for testing.

Is it fast? Yeah, but if you have to cast it three times then it's a wash.

If it's a matter of "but he keeps removing my debuff" then the request seems ridiculous.

I won't be able to test until tonight. I'll make an informed opinion then.

Hey, great point. People like numbers and figures- so in the next couple of days- I will do some testing and post results as well. I will try to include cast times for the spells it removes/all of the debuffs it removes as well. A productive response.

 

[Lord Frodo]

This thread is not about me failing to kill any one.

This is what this thread is totally about. This has been in the game for 13 years and you can't kill a Chiv player so you come to the boards trying to get the DEVs to cater to you. How is it that something that has been here for 13 years all of a sudden becomes this massive problem, it doesn't. UO is not just about YOUR play style, I am sorry a Chiv player got away from you in Fel, Doo Doo happens. 13 YEARS GIVE ME A BREAK.

 

[Martell]

This is what this thread is totally about. This has been in the game for 13 years and you can't kill a Chiv player so you come to the boards trying to get the DEVs to cater to you. How is it that something that has been here for 13 years all of a sudden becomes this massive problem, it doesn't. UO is not just about YOUR play style, I am sorry a Chiv player got away from you in Fel, Doo Doo happens. 13 YEARS GIVE ME A BREAK.

Why are you commenting? You don't pvp and you're not offering anything to the conversation.

By your logic, if something's been around a long time it must just be a-ok. Why did we even bother raising the SDI cap a few years ago...magery and inscription had been around for 15 YEARS ZOMGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!

Simple answer: THINGS CHANGE, chivalry now has the best offensive spell in game and the best defensive spells in game; suits are now insane, people could play 4/6er's 13 years ago (and they did) but they didn't have an infinite mana pool like they do now.

Remove Curse has too fast of a cast, costs too little mana, and is too effective, especially when combined with holy fist and today's suits. It should have gotten wacked when they nerfed the remove curse on cleanse wind.

 

[Lord Frodo]

It does not matter if I PvP now or not this is as much MY GAME as it is yours and I have every right to say what I wish. I see exactly what this is all about. Player A can't kill player B and comes here to whine about it. I use to PvP before UO turned this game so item based plus old age slows your reaction time down but so what you or the OP does not own UO or this site and YOU do not have the right to tell me what I can or can not do. I know %200 that is this was a REAL problem the entire PvP player base would have been in an uproar years ago but because ONE PERSON whines and it is about PvP then I guess you all have to stick up for one another instead of telling the OP to stop whining. Goes and waits for my warning.

 

[Merlin]

These changes are unneeded in either PVM or PVP.

Leave everything as it has been working for the past decade. It would be a serious mistake to make change to this skill (or the one spell they're complaining about) because of an extreme minority of PVPers.

 

[Martell]

It would be a serious mistake to make change to this skill (or the one spell they're complaining about) because of an extreme minority of PVPers.

Plz do elaborate...why would it be a serious mistake to reduce the effectiveness of Remove Curse, or increase the mana cost or cast time for chiv spells?

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Sounds to me like the part time pvpers with 4/6 chiv chars[the limit of their personal skill level] don't want their over powered characters nerfed.

 

[-Hey Arnold-]

I think remove curse needs to be capped at 2/6 and keep the heals at 4/6. Kind of like how ninja is 3/6 but animal form is 0 fast cast. Also necro mages deff need some kind of bump.

 

[Spock's Beard]

I also forgot to note that all of the mage and necromancy spells have a cost of 240 skill points to cast vs 120 for chiv to remove.

I don't have an opinion on the topic of the thread, but this sort of skill points comparison is almost always stupid and pointless except for the broadest and most general of applications. You can't just arbitrarily pick a tiny handful of your pet spells from a list of dozens and go "WELL THIS SKILL TAKES X POINTS SO THIS SHOULD BE BETTER."

 

[Merlin]

Folks -

There is nothing wrong with healthy discussion of the topic, but please refrain from name calling and taking personal swipes at one another simply for disagreeing. Keep it focused on the topic and not the individuals commenting.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Necromancy current has very few useful PvP spells.

Omen = Good for increasing damage and ignoring resisting spells.
Wither = Spawns and PvP situations.
Pain Spike = a quick guaranteed amount of damage, but not stackable.
Blood Oath = If you understand the mechanics this is still very deadly in pvp.

Generally these are the 4 most used necro spells in PvP, I fail to see how the amount of skill points needed and cast times can be compared to that of chivalry, which now has the most OP spell in the game [guaranteed damage over 30 and never fail to hit, can be spammed and doesn't reduce damage if stacked at opponent] and all of the defensive capabilities of - Instant cure any level of poison, almost instant heals, instant removing all curses + all of the PVM benefits + the ability to ressurect players.

Necro needs a buff or apples/remove curse needs to be nerfed a bit harder. Even strangle is nigh on useless now as casting focus suits are easy to make.

I would like to suggest bringing down the Mana Cost of necro spells to make the template viable again, I feel that almost every build works fine without med now, especially Parry/Alchy and of course any Mystic/Focus combo is not too mana heavy, but necros still struggle and as people are becoming better with boxing an omen, Mana vamp is not as useful as it once was. Seeing as Exorcism is broken, can't we turn it into a ressurection spell and maybe get a healing spell other than Spirit speak which takes up skill points or make it work faster maybe make it 0.25 like Chiv heals so we can go back to classic Focused Necromancer builds and them not be entirely useless.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

I think remove curse needs to be capped at 2/6 and keep the heals at 4/6. Kind of like how ninja is 3/6 but animal form is 0 fast cast. Also necro mages deff need some kind of bump.

I could get behind this.

 

[Fridgster]

Necromancy current has very few useful PvP spells.

Omen = Good for increasing damage and ignoring resisting spells.
Wither = Spawns and PvP situations.
Pain Spike = a quick guaranteed amount of damage, but not stackable.
Blood Oath = If you understand the mechanics this is still very deadly in pvp.

Generally these are the 4 most used necro spells in PvP, I fail to see how the amount of skill points needed and cast times can be compared to that of chivalry, which now has the most OP spell in the game [guaranteed damage over 30 and never fail to hit, can be spammed and doesn't reduce damage if stacked at opponent] and all of the defensive capabilities of - Instant cure any level of poison, almost instant heals, instant removing all curses + all of the PVM benefits + the ability to ressurect players.

Necro needs a buff or apples/remove curse needs to be nerfed a bit harder. Even strangle is nigh on useless now as casting focus suits are easy to make.

I would like to suggest bringing down the Mana Cost of necro spells to make the template viable again, I feel that almost every build works fine without med now, especially Parry/Alchy and of course any Mystic/Focus combo is not too mana heavy, but necros still struggle and as people are becoming better with boxing an omen, Mana vamp is not as useful as it once was. Seeing as Exorcism is broken, can't we turn it into a ressurection spell and maybe get a healing spell other than Spirit speak which takes up skill points or make it work faster maybe make it 0.25 like Chiv heals so we can go back to classic Focused Necromancer builds and them not be entirely useless.

This is sort of an example were your claims of inadequateness only applies to a certain play style. To me necro offer great advantages PVM wise.

necro form: obvious reasons (sampire)
Wraith: again obvious
Curse weapon: way under used. 50% leech is awesome.
raise dead: great for spawns
Wither: yeah pretty useful.
Summon familiar: extra mana hp or stamina.

To you and your play style necro is underwhelming. To me it's just fine and under used.

With the requested chiv. change my biggest concern is that nerfing one thing will Nerf something else. Mind you this is a system that is over a decade old. This seems to me just silly and there are plenty of things the devs could be doing more pressing than this

 

[Parnoc]

Please Devs, if you think you should make this happen, leave us Trammie PVMers alone and for cryin' out loud don't include us in this minority PVP crap whining nerf. I am so tired of PVP moans and groans and then the squeaky wheel gets greased but who pays for this ----- the PVMers who make up the majority of the game and didn't stand up for themselves because they know that most of the time it won't do any good so they just go about their ways adjusting to the change.

 

[Martell]

I think remove curse needs to be capped at 2/6 and keep the heals at 4/6. Kind of like how ninja is 3/6 but animal form is 0 fast cast. Also necro mages deff need some kind of bump.

I like this idea as well.

 

[Martell]

Please Devs, if you think you should make this happen, leave us Trammie PVMers alone and for cryin' out loud don't include us in this minority PVP crap whining nerf. I am so tired of PVP moans and groans and then the squeaky wheel gets greased but who pays for this ----- the PVMers who make up the majority of the game and didn't stand up for themselves because they know that most of the time it won't do any good so they just go about their ways adjusting to the change.

Content added to Tram in the past 5 yrs vs. Content added to Fel in the past 5 yrs
The number of posts on this forum about Tram related things (like mining granite, vet rewards, deco) vs. posts about PvP

Pretty clear who the squeaky wheels are.

 

[Parnoc]

Content added to Tram in the past 5 yrs vs. Content added to Fel in the past 5 yrs
The number of posts on this forum about Tram related things (like mining granite, vet rewards, deco) vs. posts about PvP

Pretty clear who the squeaky wheels are.

Seems to me that's a completely different topic. Mining granite, vet rewards etc etc etc are about game items, not about hampering one majority playstyle and ability to satisfy the whining of the minority.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Seems to me that's a completely different topic. Mining granite, vet rewards etc etc etc are about game items, not about hampering one majority playstyle and ability to satisfy the whining of the minority.

Sounds like you're just whining from the other side of the coin. Whaaa they're gonna nerf my sampire etc etc

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

 

[Fridgster]

Sounds like you're just whining from the other side of the coin. Whaaa they're gonna nerf my sampire etc etc

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

And why do you think it's OK to nerf one play style so that you can make your play style more relevant? This obviously has not been an issue for OVER A FREAKING DECADE! but now it needs work. I call shenanigans.

 

[elster]

Please Devs, if you think you should make this happen, leave us Trammie PVMers alone and for cryin' out loud don't include us in this minority PVP crap whining nerf. I am so tired of PVP moans and groans and then the squeaky wheel gets greased but who pays for this ----- the PVMers who make up the majority of the game and didn't stand up for themselves because they know that most of the time it won't do any good so they just go about their ways adjusting to the change.

What have the trammie PVMers ever lost? I keep seeing this sentiment echoed on these forums that the PVPers always get changes that ruin tram PVM. When has this happened and how? There are tons of viable templates in PVM and reducing max FC from remove curse is something that would BARELY affect any tram PVM, but have a profound positive effect on PVP.

It really just sounds like you guys just make up stuff in your heads in an effort to play the victim card.

 

[Fridgster]

What have the trammie PVMers ever lost? I keep seeing this sentiment echoed on these forums that the PVPers always get changes that ruin tram PVM. When has this happened and how? There are tons of viable templates in PVM and reducing max FC from remove curse is something that would BARELY affect any tram PVM, but have a profound positive effect on PVP.

If it is so profound why has it not been brought up once in the many years it has existed?

 

[elster]

If it is so profound why has it not been brought up once in the many years it has existed?

Again, this exact question has been asked multiple times and answered multiple times in this thread and the other chiv thread. Please read.

 

[Lord Frodo]

So what really happened to get this much attention?
Was there a player roaming Fel that you tried to kill and could not?
Was there a miner/resource gather that you tried to kill to take their stuff but could not?
Was there a PvMer doing a spawn and when it was over you tried to kill to take his/her stuff but could not?
We are talking a survival spell that is used a lot in PvM and now it looks like some have found another use for it to survive in Fel to keep what they gathered.
Enquiring minds want to know @PaithanTheElf

 

[Fridgster]

Again, this exact question has been asked multiple times and answered multiple times in this thread and the other chiv thread. Please read.

So um the only thing I saw was things change... well sometimes they don't and I get a sneaking suspicion that this won't either.

 

[elster]

So um the only thing I saw was things change... well sometimes they don't and I get a sneaking suspicion that this won't either.

Cady put it better than I could.

Chiv only recently became relevant because of Holy Fist and the changes in armor. Chiv has always had the best defense spells in the game, but a warrior without poisoning, necro, archery, or some other offensive skill always fel a bit short of having enough firepower to be competitive in PvP since AoS. Not too many pure melee chars out there were viable for a while(especially since the caps put on enhance potions and stats) that's not true now with the ridiculous stats people can get on their suits for chaining specials for days.

The changes in armor also make chivalry more viable as the sole skill people use for healing. People used to never use it without healing(except for sampires) bc the mana toll it took. And mana is really not an issue anymore bc ridic mana increase and regen is easy to get.

You obviously don't know much about PvP now or the history of PvP changes in the game. But how will a half second longer casting time on Chiv spells break PvM for you? I don't get it, if I'm trying to pull off Greater Heals on my Mage and I've got a screen full of imps I just back off enough tiles to be out of their range, easy peasy.

 

[drcossack]

For the "Keep chiv as is" camp, a real world analogy for you: In Magic: The gathering (and also pretty much every trading card game ever), there are ban lists updated every so often. Often due to the introduction of game-breakingly OP **** that there's no way to counter. It's done to keep a healthy and BALANCED metagame going. Why, then, is it such a problem for UO pvp? Yes, I will admit that Chiv was not as much of a problem...THIRTEEN YEARS AGO. It was primarily used for utility and extra healing. Any offense from the dexers that used it came from their melee skill and the pitiful damage done by Holy Light.

With the evolution of gear since the introduction of imbuing, reforging, and global loot, templates that were once impossible are now possible. Further, things that may not have been as useful (i.e. Chiv) are now the norm, although I will say that I find the overall skill level of those whose offense relies on 4/6 Chiv is lacking. But that's besides the point. Even if they don't use Fist for its offensive ability, it still has excellent defensive use through Close Wounds/Cleanse by Fire/Remove Curse. pvp balance should evolve along with the gear, templates, and overall metagame.

Another question: when have pvp changes ever impacted pvm?

 

[Lord Frodo]

What have the trammie PVMers ever lost? I keep seeing this sentiment echoed on these forums that the PVPers always get changes that ruin tram PVM. When has this happened and how? There are tons of viable templates in PVM and reducing max FC from remove curse is something that would BARELY affect any tram PVM, but have a profound positive effect on PVP.

It really just sounds like you guys just make up stuff in your heads in an effort to play the victim card.

So please explain to the rest of the world how something that has been here for 13 years become such an OP spell. Are you trying to tell everybody that nobody used this spell until now? ONE PvPer comes on here and cries about not being able to kill a player that used a survivability spell to escape death and now it is just SO OVER POWERED. What about all the tricks PvPer use to do the same thing in PvP, we don't hear you screaming about them. Why don't we hear you PvPer screaming about all the dare I say programs that you all say everybody else uses but you . No you come on here and scream about a spell used to survive mostly in PvM against spell casters and some one used it in Fel to keep their good and now it is OVER POWERED. Please go ask every tamer about PvPers screaming and getting our pets NERFED because of it.

 

[elster]

So please explain to the rest of the world how something that has been here for 13 years become such an OP spell. Are you trying to tell everybody that nobody used this spell until now? ONE PvPer comes on here and cries about not being able to kill a player that used a survivability spell to escape death and now it is just SO OVER POWERED. What about all the tricks PvPer use to do the same thing in PvP, we don't hear you screaming about them. Why don't we hear you PvPer screaming about all the dare I say programs that you all say everybody else uses but you . No you come on here and scream about a spell used to survive mostly in PvM against spell casters and some one used it in Fel to keep their good and now it is OVER POWERED. Please go ask every tamer about PvPers screaming and getting our pets NERFED because of it.

You are just trolling now. You have asked this multiple times, and people have answered you multiple times.

 

[Lord Frodo]

Another question: when have pvp changes ever impacted pvm?

Every time the DEVs adjust something in the name of PvP because they can't split it apart from PvM. Just to start the list I suggest you go ask every pet owner about getting pets NERFED all in the name of PvP that bled over into PvM.

 

[Lord Frodo]

You are just trolling now. You have asked this multiple times, and people have answered you multiple times.

No they have not because it is a 13 years of a spell and now it is just so OP, Pallies could do 4/6 back then just like they can do 4/6 now and all because one of your fellow PvP cries that this is so OVER POWERED you all have to agree with him/her. It became easier in 2009 when imbuing came in so that was 7 years ago and again it is just now becoming a problem. I can not believe all the excuses that are being given to support nerfing this when it has NEVER been a problem until this person cried about it. A 13 year old spell made easier 7 year ago has just now become this so over powered spell that the DEVs should just NERF it now who cares why it is being asked for. I could not kill a person in Fel because they used a survivability spell so please nerf it, priceless and it is predominantly used in PvM not PvP that makes it even more priceless.

 

[elster]

No they have not because it is a 13 years of a spell and now it is just so OP, Pallies could do 4/6 back then just like they can do 4/6 now and all because one of your fellow PvP cries that this is so OVER POWERED you all have to agree with him/her. It became easier in 2009 when imbuing came in so that was 7 years ago and again it is just now becoming a problem. I can not believe all the excuses that are being given to support nerfing this when it has NEVER been a problem until this person cried about it. A 13 year old spell made easier 7 year ago has just now become this aso over powered spell that the DEVs should just NERF it now who cares why it is being asked for. I could now kill a person in Fel because they used a survivability spell so please nerf it, priceless and it is predominantly used in PvM not PvP that makes it even more priceless.

You clearly can't read. Multiple people have given you reasons why 13 years ago it wasn't a problem and why it is now, yet you keep asking the same question while ignoring what everyone has already told you. Work on some reading comprehension, then come back and argue.

 

[Lord Frodo]

You clearly can't read. Multiple people have given you reasons why 13 years ago it wasn't a problem and why it is now, yet you keep asking the same question while ignoring what everyone has already told you. Work on some reading comprehension, then come back and argue.

And I just said SEVEN, you know the number 7, years ago imbuing made this easier and now SEVEN YEARS LATER this is just so over powered. Do you know how to read? Do you know how long 7 YEARS is? A 13 year old survivability spell made easier 7 years ago has suddenly become this over powered survivability spell all because a PvPer could not kill someone in Fel. ONE kill missed in 13 years now that is a problem.

 

[OREOGL]

Good, it's been a little while since the last tram vs fel thread.

I was beginning to think something was wrong.

Carry on.

 

[Tyrath]

So the real problem is that Chiv is a bit more relevant today than it was 13 years ago. It has gone from utility to 1 offensive and 1 defensive spell that are worthwhile. Seems to me PvP simply need to adapt and change their play style...... Since *Things Change* Something changed and rather than adapting, you hit the boards crying.

 

[CovenantX]

Remove Curse Honestly I don't think it needs a nerf, mainly because we have Enchanted Apples (consumable).

Enchanted Apples: 30 second cooldown (it almost never exceeds this), instant, uninterruptible, cannot fail.
Chivalry>Remove Curse: Interruptible (though tough to interrupt) 0.5 second cast time, can fail (based on Chiv+Karma vs attackers casting skills & amount of debuffs) 20 base mana cost 12-9 mana @40-55 lmc respectively.

It should be hard to kill a Paladin, because they have poor offense, Holyfist is relatively easy to heal through (you can cast G-heal/Spiritspeak between Holy-fist spam), it Also takes a lot of mana. 40 base (24/18 @40/55 lmc)

Side notes:
1) I'm against any and all consumable items "Better" than spells that offer the same effects. (skill = > consumables 100%)
2) I don't like to factor the difficulty of building suits for 4/6 chivalry/spellweaving vs other casting schools, but it is somewhat difficult to reach caps on the necessary mods, and still have a sufficient amount of mana/mana regen to sustain the use of chivalry.

 

[GarthGrey]

For the "Keep chiv as is" camp, a real world analogy for you: In Magic: The gathering (and also pretty much every trading card game ever), there are ban lists updated every so often. Often due to the introduction of game-breakingly OP **** that there's no way to counter. It's done to keep a healthy and BALANCED metagame going. Why, then, is it such a problem for UO pvp? Yes, I will admit that Chiv was not as much of a problem...THIRTEEN YEARS AGO. It was primarily used for utility and extra healing. Any offense from the dexers that used it came from their melee skill and the pitiful damage done by Holy Light.

With the evolution of gear since the introduction of imbuing, reforging, and global loot, templates that were once impossible are now possible. Further, things that may not have been as useful (i.e. Chiv) are now the norm, although I will say that I find the overall skill level of those whose offense relies on 4/6 Chiv is lacking. But that's besides the point. Even if they don't use Fist for its offensive ability, it still has excellent defensive use through Close Wounds/Cleanse by Fire/Remove Curse. pvp balance should evolve along with the gear, templates, and overall metagame.

Another question: when have pvp changes ever impacted pvm?

Did you just compare a card game with pvp ? I could understand it, if the card game were played over the internet where latency and packet loss were an issue. My guess would be, the OP has a really awesome, fantastic, usually remains undefeated internet connection, but some pesky Paladin came along with his game breaking 4/6 casting speed and he survived a .05 ping mana dump and someones mad about it. I could be wrong though.

 

[GarthGrey]

Remove Curse Honestly I don't think it needs a nerf, mainly because we have Enchanted Apples (consumable).

Enchanted Apples: 30 second cooldown (it almost never exceeds this), instant, uninterruptible, cannot fail.
Chivalry>Remove Curse: Interruptible (though tough to interrupt) 0.5 second cast time, can fail (based on Chiv+Karma vs attackers casting skills & amount of debuffs) 20 base mana cost 12-9 mana @40-55 lmc respectively.

It should be hard to kill a Paladin, because they have poor offense, Holyfist is relatively easy to heal through (you can cast G-heal/Spiritspeak between Holy-fist spam), it Also takes a lot of mana. 40 base (24/18 @40/55 lmc)

Side notes:
1) I'm against any and all consumable items "Better" than spells that offer the same effects. (skill = > consumables 100%)
2) I don't like to factor the difficulty of building suits for 4/6 chivalry/spellweaving vs other casting schools, but it is somewhat difficult to reach caps on the necessary mods, and still have a sufficient amount of mana/mana regen to sustain the use of chivalry.

How dare you use logic and reason on this topic.

 

[Fridgster]

You are just trolling now. You have asked this multiple times, and people have answered you multiple times.

I disagree. I see no trolling. You asked for an example and you got one. Sorry if you didn't like it. Doesn't change the fact that he is 100% correct.

 

[Martell]

So the real problem is that Chiv is a bit more relevant today than it was 13 years ago. It has gone from utility to 1 offensive and 1 defensive spell that are worthwhile. Seems to me PvP simply need to adapt and change their play style...... Since *Things Change* Something changed and rather than adapting, you hit the boards crying.

It's not even that.

13 years ago, you had lots of people playing 4/6 dp ninjas and other temps. The thing was, back then you either A) ran out of mana really quickly or B) sacrificed a skill (usually resisting spells) to fit meditation onto your template. In addition, your template was limited to close combat, you had no range.

With Holy Fist that's no longer the case, you have ranged offense, and you also have the best defensive spells, which are in turn augmented because everyone is stacking spellweaving, bushido, alchemy, resist, and/or animal taming on their templates through jewels. With pretty much infinite mana, and chivalry being augmented by these skills, the only way for a mage to kill a chiv is by stacking debuffs, however, that's pretty much impossible now, given the remove cast timer, apples, and all the things being stacked on top of the already exceptional defensive capabilities of Chiv.

So there, for all your idiots who don't pvp, asking why this is just now a problem after THIRTEEEEEEEEEEEN YEARS, there it is for you.

 

[CovenantX]

The best part is everyone that mentioned necromancy has Yet to mention the "Best spell" necromancy has to offer (am I the only person that uses it?).
sad day.

 

[elster]

ITT: Non PVPers telling PVPers what is / isn't broken in PVP.

 

[drcossack]

Did you just compare a card game with pvp ? I could understand it, if the card game were played over the internet where latency and packet loss were an issue. My guess would be, the OP has a really awesome, fantastic, usually remains undefeated internet connection, but some pesky Paladin came along with his game breaking 4/6 casting speed and he survived a .05 ping mana dump and someones mad about it. I could be wrong though.

Well, there are online simulators for them. But that's not the point - would it be better if I used League of Legends as my example instead? If things are broken/unbalanced/OP, they get banned/fixed/whatever. Balance hasn't evolved to keep up with the gear and metagame/templates used.

 

[OREOGL]

Remove Curse Honestly I don't think it needs a nerf, mainly because we have Enchanted Apples (consumable).

Enchanted Apples: 30 second cooldown (it almost never exceeds this), instant, uninterruptible, cannot fail.
Chivalry>Remove Curse: Interruptible (though tough to interrupt) 0.5 second cast time, can fail (based on Chiv+Karma vs attackers casting skills & amount of debuffs) 20 base mana cost 12-9 mana @40-55 lmc respectively.

It should be hard to kill a Paladin, because they have poor offense, Holyfist is relatively easy to heal through (you can cast G-heal/Spiritspeak between Holy-fist spam), it Also takes a lot of mana. 40 base (24/18 @40/55 lmc)

Side notes:
1) I'm against any and all consumable items "Better" than spells that offer the same effects. (skill = > consumables 100%)
2) I don't like to factor the difficulty of building suits for 4/6 chivalry/spellweaving vs other casting schools, but it is somewhat difficult to reach caps on the necessary mods, and still have a sufficient amount of mana/mana regen to sustain the use of chivalry.

While I'm not really arguing with what you're saying I am curious how you interrupt a .5 second spell with 4 fc (-1 second however that works)

As far as being 4/6 the orny Hephaestus and ring will put you there pretty easy.

 

[drcossack]

The best part is everyone that mentioned necromancy has Yet to mention the "Best spell" necromancy has to offer (am I the only person that uses it?).
sad day.

Shh, don't tip them off!

While I'm not really arguing with what you're saying I am curious how you interrupt a .5 second spell with 4 fc (-1 second however that works)

As far as being 4/6 the orny Hephaestus and ring will put you there pretty easy.

Spam the ever-loving **** out of Weaken like your life depends on it. Which will work (most of the time) until they start running.

 

[CovenantX]

While I'm not really arguing with what you're saying I am curious how you interrupt a .5 second spell with 4 fc (-1 second however that works)

As far as being 4/6 the orny Hephaestus and ring will put you there pretty easy.

Well, like I said it's difficult, but it's the same difference of interrupting a mages magic arrow, the first interrupt is the hardest.
I will say though, one mild advantage Chivalry does have is that the spells cannot be overcasted. (the courser always comes up unless it's interrupted)

Edit: with the gear you suggested having a shield brings up a more specific template, indicating parry may/may not be involved. but another option is to have FC on your weapon, then the choices are:
1) do you go with anti-disarm (disarm would hurt you even more in this situation)
OR
2) do you go with chivalry>Holyfist?

 

[OREOGL]

Well, like I said it's difficult, but it's the same difference of interrupting a mages magic arrow, the first interrupt is the hardest.
I will say though, one mild advantage Chivalry does have is that the spells cannot be overcasted. (the courser always comes up unless it's interrupted)

Yeah, I was just thinking along the lines of justification.

If the spell is .5 seconds and you put fc cap for it at 2 (-.5 seconds)
It seems to be a wash because they're both instant. Maybe there's a minimum spell casting cap? I don't know.

But I never did find the actual spell duration so I'm going off your number.