Chivalry vs. Bushido

[elspeth]

Hi all,
So there was a "warrior bard" thread over in the bard forum also and it got a reply from a guy with a template running 120 chivalry and no bushido.

Link: http://vboards.stratics.com/uo-bard/260191-warrior-bard.html

Since it seems to be the thing to do to spam AI instead of do lightning strike I start wondering how important is it really to have bushido instead of chivalry at max.

The guy states that 120 chiv EoO and CW is like having a slayer on every weapon and is thus effective even against creatures without a slayer type. This would also, I realize, open up the slayer imbuing slot on weapon for something else, like say HLD. The guy also suggests one could add some bushido for the perfection effect but better to not have to rely on that especially if you don't manage to honor your target (which will probably be a major problem for me cuz my computer is slow)

So, is this all true? Is there really any reason to have 120 bushido anymore? I've been noticing people dropping parry to have more chivalry but perhaps it would be better to drop bushido? Can you hit max damage without? A possible modified sampire template could be:

120 weapon
120 parry
60 bushido (so you get perfection and mana save thing)
120 chivalry
120 tactics
99 necro
81 anat

or perhaps
120 weapon
120 parry
120 chivalry
120 tactics
120 anat
100 necro

this last of course completely gets rid of bushido which means you don't get the mana savings and I suppose that might make it impossible to chain AI. What do you guys think?

Hmm, thinking on answering my own question, I suppose the EoO will work against stuff without slayer but it won't work on mixed creatures like a super slayer would at a champ spawn and you can't whirlwhind without bushido right? So perhaps the non-bushido temp might be more powerful against single boss monsters but not so good for doing multiple creatures like in a champ spawn?

So maybe a non-bushido wraith thrower or archer might be a good way to go for max damage against a single target. (and sorry for the long post, am just "thinking out loud" here)

120 archery or throwing
120 tactics
120 anatomy
120 chivalry
120 ss
60 necro
60 meditation

 

[elspeth]

Hmm, but you can't both curse weapon and consecrate weapon. So change that last template to have 99 necro for vampire form and then you don't need the ss at all. So you will need HML on weapons but with meditation maybe won't need it at max.

Increase meditation perhaps and add in a bit of bushido?

Hmm, just reread Corwin's paladin post and it sounds like he has this template without the necro form and he says he doesn't do enough damage without a slayer so perhaps the other guy is mistaken about 120 chivalry maxing out your damage. I need to spend more time reading about damage and what stacks with what.

So, I guess what I really want is what template will do the maximum amount of damage that I can possibly get. It doesn't need to be solo, in fact, assume that the template is backing up another person who is "tanking" either with a gd or a traditional sampire.

120 archery (or throwing if a gargoyle)
120 bushido
120 chivalry
120 tactics
120 anatomy
120 meditation?

 

[CorwinXX]

Simplifying there're three ways to get bonus to damage (perfection, eoo, slayer) and you need just two of them to reach cap. Each way has its disadvantages so it's good to have all three.

My macer does 80-90 damage without slayer and 130-150 with slayer (iirc 44-51 displayed damage).

 

[CorwinXX]

Slayer
+ simple to use
- there're non-slayer and fey slayer monsters

Bushido
+ other useful spells
- can't use vs crowd
- can't use vs damaged or buff'ed
- can't use vs honored by other player

Chivalry
+ other spells
- can't use vs mixed crowd

For melee chars with parrying and without shields I'd suggest Bushido.
For rangers chars or melee chars with parrying and with shield I'd suggest Chivalry.
For all chars I'd suggest to have both if you have enough room.

p.s.
Bushido is not so effective without parrying.
Chivalry is not so effective without 4/6.


p.p.s.
vs peerless I'd prefer to have Bushido and Chivalry
vs spawn level 3 I'd prefer to have Bushido (and slayer)
vs spawn level 4 I'd prefer to have Chivalry (and slayer)

 

[CorwinXX]

I don't have much expirience but here's what I think.

Bushido
for all chars:

1. Perfection
Bonus to damage up to 100%.
You can't honor a target if it's damaged/buff'ed/honored by other player.
If you honored a taget then honored another one you can't honor the first target again.

2. Confidence
Heals up to 40 hp for 4 sec (also regen stamina). The effect is halted if you get hit but you can recast it again (I believe there's 4 sec cooldown).
It's very useful when you even when you're mortal striked/poisoned or when you're running.
You can use it as additional way to heal vs one tough monster.

3. Lightning Strike
Gives you chance to penetrate armor (up to 25%??). Useful if you can't AI (or can't chain AI).
Gives you hci if it isn't already capped for some reason.

4. Momentum Strike
Useful when you haven't WW
or there're too few targets for WW and you haven't AI/DS (double strike) or you haven't enough mana for special move.
Also useful when you fighting a boss and want to kill his minions/summons without losing perfection.

5. WW damage bonus
Up to 100. 100 damage is a lot especially when combined with hit area mod on your weapon.


Bushido
for chars with parry

1. An ability to parry without shield.

2. Possibility to sacrify chance to block for greate mods from a "cann't be repared" shield.

3. Confidence
You get up to 10 hp and 24 stamina from each succesful block. It's very useful vs crowd of weak melee monsters.
It's pretty useless vs one tough monster (but you can still use confidence for its first effect).

4. Evasion
Increases your chance to parry and grants the ability to parry direct damage spells and Dragons Breath.
It's especially usefull when you run to/from a monster with ranged attack. But cooldown is rather long - 20 sec. I don't know how long this effect is on.

5. Counter Strike
Gives you a chance to do an additional "free" damage. Although it doen't look to be useful for me.


Chivalry

1. Close Wounds (Obsu Vulni)
Heals 7-39? hp.
FC notes: You need atleast 2 FC to use it in a battle. With 4 FC you have a good chance to cast it even when surrounded by monsters. Without FC you can use it for healing after escaping from fighting).

2. Cleanse by Fire (Expor Flamus)
Cures of poison. You need high chivalry to get a good chance of curing high level poison.
See FC notes above.

3. Remove Curse (Extermo Vomica)
Not very useful to remove curses like Clumsy/Weaken/Feeblemin because you need to stop swinging to cast it, especially when you fight vs crowd.
Very useful to remove Blood Oath. In this case the fact you stop swinging is an advantage.
Useful to remove Mortal Strike. (I belive it's the only way to remove it, isn't it?)
See FC notes above.

4. Dispel Evil (Dispiro Malas)
Useful to dispel Revenants. Cann't be interrupted so you neen't FC to use it.

5. Consecrate Weapon (Consecrus Arma)
Provides a chance (100% at 80+ chivalry) to do damage against the targets weakest resist type.
You needn't it if you can AI. But some monsters have one very low resist or even one negative resist. In this case CW gives you more damage than AI.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle. But it's duration is very short with low chivalry (6-7 secs). I'd say it's annoying to use it without FC/FCR and high chivalry when you want to use other spells/skills as well.
At 90+ skill level it alse provides you a damage bonus. But this bonus counts to "300% damage cap" so usually you needn't it.

6. Divine Fury (Divinum Furis)
You can use it to referesh your stamina. But with low chivalry and just 45 dci it doesn't usually have a sence for melee chars. After lowering your dci you often get a hit lose stamina you gained from custing DF.
If your chivalry is high you can use it to get di/hci/ssi (up to 20/15/15 at 120 and iirc about 18/13/10 at 100+). The duration is 22-24 sec at high levels (2x more than CW) but there's some bad thing - recusting spell doesn't refresh its duration (standard behavie for all skills). So if you want to keep this buff on you must wait till its wears off then cast it again. And you need atleast 2/4 to comfortably keap it on.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle.

7. Enemy of One (Forul Solum)
Gives you up to 82% damage bonus vs some creature type.
Some people counts that you can use EoO only when fight single type creatures but it isn't true. There are few typical situations when you fight mixed monster types.
All monsters are not very strong. You really don't worry about taking double damage from someone. EoO allow you to kill faster especially when you haven't a slayer for some of monsters.
One dangerous type of monsters while other are not very strong. Use EoO to kill dangerous monsters faster and don't warry about double damage from others.
There are one range type and few melee types. Use EoO to kill range monsters firstly. You will be rarely hit by melee monsters while running from one range monster to another. Then recast EoO and kill melee monsters.
There are few dangerous range monster types. Try to select a spot where none or few monsters of other type can attack you. Remove EoO when moving and cast it again when starting to hit. It's easier to do with a range char. Also if different monsters has different walking speed you can divide them.
If you have high chivalry and 4/6 you can recast EoO for every single monster. If you have life leach and EoO allows you to chain AI it's often profitable to take double damage from other monsters.

8. Holy Light (Augus Luminos)
It's very useful when you do first 2-3 levels of a spawn and can't WW for some reason.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle. And you leach back enough mana to cast it nonstop.



p.s. I haven't much experience yet so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong .

 

[elspeth]

I don't have much expirience but here's what I think.
3. Remove Curse (Extermo Vomica)
Not very useful to remove curses like Clumsy/Weaken/Feeblemin because you need to stop swinging to cast it, especially when you fight vs crowd.
Very useful to remove Blood Oath. In this case the fact you stop swinging is an advantage.
Useful to remove Mortal Strike. (I belive it's the only way to remove it, isn't it?)
See FC notes above.

5. Consecrate Weapon (Consecrus Arma)
Provides a chance (100% at 80+ chivalry) to do damage against the targets weakest resist type.
You needn't it if you can AI. But some monsters have one very low resist or even one negative resist. In this case CW gives you more damage than AI.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle. But it's duration is very short with low chivalry (6-7 secs). I'd say it's annoying to use it without FC/FCR and high chivalry when you want to use other spells/skills as well.
At 90+ skill level it alse provides you a damage bonus. But this bonus counts to "300% damage cap" so usually you needn't it.

Hey Corwin,

thanks for all the thoughts. I love your rundown on all the spells for bush and chiv. I had a few thoughts that I would like to add and likewise get corrected if I am somehow thinking wrong.

3. Remove Curse sounds like it could make a difference in the anatomy/resist debate. If you only use resist for blood oathing monsters. You could just use remove curse instead. However, the problem with this is that you will need FC to not get interrupted? Anybody know how hard it is to cast remove curse without fc?

5. It sounds like consecrate weapon doesn't really work with armor ignore at all so another post where someone suggested a spell rotation of CW AI AI AI . . . is not a good way to go and in fact is a waste of mana unless of course you have high chivalry and are doing CW for extra damage increase? Also , if you don't have AI it is useful to use CW with Lightning Strike so CW LS LS LS is still an option, and also a better choice than AI against a monster with one negative or extra low resist? However, it sounds like CW might be your best friend when you are doing whirlwind to clear spawn. It should target the lowest resist of each monster you hit individually right? So, if you are doing WW special and thus can't AI then doing CW is definitely a good idea?

 

[CorwinXX]

I don't think you'd be able to use Remove Curse without FC when you're fighting vs crowd. Even with 4/6 sometimes I need to ran away to cast it. Not swinging is good when you're under blood oath but it means you're not leaching life... few fizles and you're dead from other damage.
Also I believe it doesn't help you if you use WW (with 0 resisting spells) because you'll be dead (on the server) before you get blood oath message (on client).

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

The biggest damage comes from combining the two.

Bushido's damage potential dwarfs Chivalry 's, with the very important catch that Bushido's potential is just that: Potential. Chivalry is surer. I, for one, prefer Chivalry for that matter. I always try to reward constancy and reliability. But the biggest damage comes from combining the two.

-Galen's player

 

[zamot]

I don't have much expirience but here's what I think.

Bushido
for all chars:

1. Perfection
Bonus to damage up to 100%.
You can't honor a target if it's damaged/buff'ed/honored by other player.
If you honored a taget then honored another one you can't honor the first target again.

2. Confidence
Heals up to 40 hp for 4 sec (also regen stamina). The effect is halted if you get hit but you can recast it again (I believe there's 4 sec cooldown).
It's very useful when you even when you're mortal striked/poisoned or when you're running.
You can use it as additional way to heal vs one tough monster.

3. Lightning Strike
Gives you chance to penetrate armor (up to 25%??). Useful if you can't AI (or can't chain AI).
Gives you hci if it isn't already capped for some reason.

4. Momentum Strike
Useful when you haven't WW
or there're too few targets for WW and you haven't AI/DS (double strike) or you haven't enough mana for special move.
Also useful when you fighting a boss and want to kill his minions/summons without losing perfection.

5. WW damage bonus
Up to 100. 100 damage is a lot especially when combined with hit area mod on your weapon.


Bushido
for chars with parry

1. An ability to parry without shield.

2. Possibility to sacrify chance to block for greate mods from a "cann't be repared" shield.

3. Confidence
You get up to 10 hp and 24 stamina from each succesful block. It's very useful vs crowd of weak melee monsters.
It's pretty useless vs one tough monster (but you can still use confidence for its first effect).

4. Evasion
Increases your chance to parry and grants the ability to parry direct damage spells and Dragons Breath.
It's especially usefull when you run to/from a monster with ranged attack. But cooldown is rather long - 20 sec. I don't know how long this effect is on.

5. Counter Strike
Gives you a chance to do an additional "free" damage. Although it doen't look to be useful for me.


Chivalry

1. Close Wounds (Obsu Vulni)
Heals 7-39? hp.
FC notes: You need atleast 2 FC to use it in a battle. With 4 FC you have a good chance to cast it even when surrounded by monsters. Without FC you can use it for healing after escaping from fighting).

2. Cleanse by Fire (Expor Flamus)
Cures of poison. You need high chivalry to get a good chance of curing high level poison.
See FC notes above.

3. Remove Curse (Extermo Vomica)
Not very useful to remove curses like Clumsy/Weaken/Feeblemin because you need to stop swinging to cast it, especially when you fight vs crowd.
Very useful to remove Blood Oath. In this case the fact you stop swinging is an advantage.
Useful to remove Mortal Strike. (I belive it's the only way to remove it, isn't it?)
See FC notes above.

4. Dispel Evil (Dispiro Malas)
Useful to dispel Revenants. Cann't be interrupted so you neen't FC to use it.

5. Consecrate Weapon (Consecrus Arma)
Provides a chance (100% at 80+ chivalry) to do damage against the targets weakest resist type.
You needn't it if you can AI. But some monsters have one very low resist or even one negative resist. In this case CW gives you more damage than AI.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle. But it's duration is very short with low chivalry (6-7 secs). I'd say it's annoying to use it without FC/FCR and high chivalry when you want to use other spells/skills as well.
At 90+ skill level it alse provides you a damage bonus. But this bonus counts to "300% damage cap" so usually you needn't it.

6. Divine Fury (Divinum Furis)
You can use it to referesh your stamina. But with low chivalry and just 45 dci it doesn't usually have a sence for melee chars. After lowering your dci you often get a hit lose stamina you gained from custing DF.
If your chivalry is high you can use it to get di/hci/ssi (up to 20/15/15 at 120 and iirc about 18/13/10 at 100+). The duration is 22-24 sec at high levels (2x more than CW) but there's some bad thing - recusting spell doesn't refresh its duration (standard behavie for all skills). So if you want to keep this buff on you must wait till its wears off then cast it again. And you need atleast 2/4 to comfortably keap it on.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle.

7. Enemy of One (Forul Solum)
Gives you up to 82% damage bonus vs some creature type.
Some people counts that you can use EoO only when fight single type creatures but it isn't true. There are few typical situations when you fight mixed monster types.
All monsters are not very strong. You really don't worry about taking double damage from someone. EoO allow you to kill faster especially when you haven't a slayer for some of monsters.
One dangerous type of monsters while other are not very strong. Use EoO to kill dangerous monsters faster and don't warry about double damage from others.
There are one range type and few melee types. Use EoO to kill range monsters firstly. You will be rarely hit by melee monsters while running from one range monster to another. Then recast EoO and kill melee monsters.
There are few dangerous range monster types. Try to select a spot where none or few monsters of other type can attack you. Remove EoO when moving and cast it again when starting to hit. It's easier to do with a range char. Also if different monsters has different walking speed you can divide them.
If you have high chivalry and 4/6 you can recast EoO for every single monster. If you have life leach and EoO allows you to chain AI it's often profitable to take double damage from other monsters.

8. Holy Light (Augus Luminos)
It's very useful when you do first 2-3 levels of a spawn and can't WW for some reason.
It doesn't interrupt your swinging/moving so you can easily use it during a battle. And you leach back enough mana to cast it nonstop.



p.s. I haven't much experience yet so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong .

Just curious on the WW(whirl wind) part. I thought that this was a weapons special, how is this tied to Bushido?

 

[CorwinXX]

Bushido gives a damage bonus to Whirlwind : ((# of opponents * Bushido) * (# of opponents * Bushido) / 3600) = Bonus Damage
For example, if you are using a weapon with Whirlwind on it, and you are surrounded by 4 enemies, and have a Bushido skill of 90, the additional damage you do to each of those enemies will be 36 points of additional damage. The damage bonus is capped at 100.
Whirlwind Attack - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia