Announcement Trade Forum Rules Update Draft--Please Read

[Riyana]

Hello everyone!

We listened to your input and put our heads together to create a new rules draft specific to the trade forums.

The original draft admittedly needed work, and we appreciate your patience. We hope you see the intent behind the changes, which remain true in this draft: we want to create a reasonable balance between heavy and light sellers while not allowing any single person or a few people to perpetually dominate a forum. We don't wish to discourage or disallow bulk and high-volume sellers, but we also don't wish for smaller sellers to be crowded out.

Please look over this draft and let us know what you think needs clarification and/or revision. Barring any unforeseen circumstances, this draft will go into effect this Friday, May 20th. Thank you and happy trading!


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In addition to the Stratics Rules of Conduct, posts on the trade forums are subject to the following rules to ensure that all users have a fair, competitive opportunity to present in-game items for sale.

• It is strongly preferred for the best interest of potential buyers and for future public reference purposes that prices and bids for items listed on Stratics be made publicly in the sales thread.

• It is also strongly preferred that posts for not be 'blanked', with the body and subject of the posts left visible for future reference. There is a "Sold" tag which you can use to properly list that an item has been sold.

• Sales and auction threads must primarily consist of items consistent with the forum topic.

• Sellers and auctioneers may not 'bump' a thread more than 1 time every 24 hours.
  • For this context, a 'bump' is defined as a post devoid of any content or meaning other than to raise a post to the top of the forum.
  • Deleted bumps can be seen by the moderators, and still count towards the 1-per-24 hour limit.
  • Posts announcing the addition or removal of items will also be considered a 'bump', and are subject to the same 1-per-24 hour limit.
  • Posts that add content or contribute meaningfully to the sale or auction are permitted and encouraged, but a pattern of posting such content in a way that intentionally and systematically circumvents the bump rule may be treated as excessive bumping.
  • There is no restriction on the amount of updates within the last hour of an auction.

• A single poster may have no more than 5 active auctions and/or sales (in any combination) threads in any one section of the trade forums at any given time.
  • An "active" sale is one that was posted or bumped by the seller within the past 2 weeks and which has not been marked "sold".
  • An auction is "active" until its end date.
  • Posts listed as "auctions" must meet these criteria:
    • An auction is defined as a sale in which goods are sold to the highest bidder, in which the reserve and buyout price are not the same, and where a specific end time and date is given.
    • All auctions must begin at the time of posting, and end no later than 30 days after the date of the first post in the auction thread.

• Conducting any of the following commercial activities on Stratics is prohibited without permission of the Senior Leadership Team:
  • RMT or selling virtual goods for any real world currency.
  • Contracting to or hiring other users for out of game activities paid with in-game currency or items.
  • Contracting to or hiring other users for in-game activities paid for with any real world currency.
  • Sale or trade of game time or other game codes.
  • Sale or trade of game accounts for any game.
  • Sale or trade of items known to be illegal to own in game.

• All transactions are made at the user's own risk. Stratics can not enforce the completion of any trade offer and makes no guarantees in regards to items traded.
  • Stratics staff can not and will not arbitrate or mediate any trade disputes.
  • As trade disputes can not be mediated or resolved on the forums, they should be kept to private channels. Please see the Rules of Conduct section under Trolling, Personal Attacks, and Harassment for further clarification of accusations and airing public grievances.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

All auctions must begin at the time of posting, and end no later than 30 days after the date of the first post in the auction thread.

I may be having another one of my "understanding problems".. but does this effect "price check" or "interest check" type threads that can turn into an auction once the op realizes there is enough interest to actually auction the item off? Is that still allowed? Or should we just start another thread at that time as an auction?

 

[Smoot]

All auctions must begin at the time of posting, and end no later than 30 days after the date of the first post in the auction thread.

this creates a problem because its currently common practice to "take offers" and then turn the thread into an auction if enough interest in the item has been determined by the seller.

if this rule is to be enforced (as all rules should, or they shouldnt be rules) theres going to be alot of users on the trade forums not understanding why they are getting points.

 

[Smoot]

Posts that add content or contribute meaningfully to the sale or auction are permitted and encouraged, but a pattern of posting such content in a way that intentionally and systematically circumvents the bump rule may be treated as excessive bumping.

this treads a Very fine line. very similar to:

• Stratics reserves the right to issue warnings or bans on a situational basis for items not explicitly covered by these Rules of Conduct.
• Stratics reserves the right to update and modify these Rules of Conduct without prior notice.

which scared a good number of users (including myself) from posting anything at all on UOHall

 

[Assia Penryn]

• • Sale or trade of items that are duped, created via exploit, or illegal to own in game.

Can we please be provided with a "list" of the unacceptable items? There are hundred that fit this criteria that are regularly sold on the rares forum.

 

[Smoot]

Can we please be provided with a "list" of the unacceptable items? There are hundred that fit this criteria that are regularly sold on the rares forum.

i dont think this is even realistic at this point.

glacial items were deemed legal to sell so people are used to that now
like you said there are hundreds of bug/exploit items (one of brians current auctions is even titled "bugged items", - bugged is synonymous with exploit in 95perenct of cases. Just as an example, the most desirable pre-patch pets were created with by an exploit. and what about exploit items that cant be differentiated from there true server birth counterparts? (like left-handled skull mugs)
there are so many old items that are duped (realistically about triple the numbers noted on manticores list) that this greatly effects the rares trade
the majority of bulk older deed items in the game are duped
europa / tangle cloth

as much as i would like to see obvious dupes being banned from trade, the majority of players probably wouldnt

realisitcally i could only see items that are actually delete on sight in game being barred from the forums
otherwise, creating a list with the input of collectors / merchants and then putting those items to a vote via poll may be the best route to take in regards to this.

 

[Scribbles]

In regards to the duped and exploited items. If the game hasnt deleted the items, told us they are illegal to own, or its well known that the item is illegal then it shouldnt be a problem to post them here. I believe the community is wise enough at this point to know what they are buying. It isnt very often that i see a thread make it through these forums with out several people chiming in about an items history or worth.

Stratics has longed used the UO's rules as a guide for whats allowed or not allowed. Id say if the game is ok with these items then stratics should to.

However, should a new dupe/exploit come around i do believe it should be the job of the moderation team, and community to get the thread taken down asap and UO's staff notified immediately.

 

[BrianFreud]

What about simply "Sale or trade of items that are officially delete-on-sight or otherwise illegal to own in the game."? That list's always too slippery to explicitly define, but as far as I can think of, at the moment, that's basically only:

• ethereal-hued items
• neon dye tubs
• void-hued ingots
• glacial ingots
• those "bank" dye tubs from Japan
• Coelacanth's Ugly Platemail (illegal to trade)

 

[Scribbles]

How about the user has to to prove the items are vendorable... because we all know that vendorable items arent dupes.... lol sorry had to.

 

[Alexander of ATL.]

... I would like to see the day that stratics proves me wrong and starts enforcing their rules for everyone... instead of a select few.
I'll give this another shot... but... well I'm sure everyone knows my opinions....

Positive points: mostly thorough and detailed....

 

[Smoot]

In all honestly, these rules only currently effect about 10rares forum posters. Other posters simply don't have enough content or post enough for the new rules to really effect them. and there seems to be a disparity.

the rules seem to discriminate against the selling styles of myself and:
@de LEET ed @DJ Diddles @Olcher @Scribbles @Promathia @StonewallGL
mainly because adding an item to a list counts as a "bump" these sellers will have to have the full amount of threads (5) to achieve the same visibility as having 1 thread of the items of the day. keep in mind this style of selling does not get the free influx of "bumps" from bidding.

while favoring the auction styles of
@Lord Nabin @jrede23 @BrianFreud

In essence, these new rules i do not think will achieve the desired effect. We will still have auction rounds spammed to the top by bids, and will actually be forced to have more threads to achieve the same amount of visibility as we did with fewer threads under the old rules.

if anyone, tagged or not, would like to comment, please do.

i wouldnt even know how to apply any of these bumping rules to the conversations / banter thats a normal part of selling on trader's hall. hell we have people talking about how "sexy" their armor is and how fast its drops panties as thread titles. Does discussion of how "sexy" a "panty dropping piece of armor" is count as a bump lol? Or would "meaningful info" have to involve yew gate, donald trump, or how an uber template owns trash players?

I doubt many of those posters will take much note of complicated, subjective rules.

then theres the issue of linking to other trade forums. No offense Brian, i know your just trying to get your items / auctions visible like the rest of us, but being able to post in the rares forum with links to other forums to sell armor, non-rares, ingredients etc just (as Mesanna likes to say) opens up a whole other door. its a very grey area. All i can assume is that if other stratics users choose to they will be allowed to link to their traders hall threads armor/spawning items/houses/pets etc in their rares selling posts.

stratics is intimidating enough for most UO players, these rules just seem to add to that.

 

[DJ Diddles]

In all honestly, these rules only currently effect about 10rares forum posters. Other posters simply don't have enough content or post enough for the new rules to really effect them. and there seems to be a disparity.

the rules seem to discriminate against the selling styles of myself and:
@de LEET ed @DJ Diddles @Olcher @Scribbles @Promathia @StonewallGL
mainly because adding an item to a list counts as a "bump" these sellers will have to have the full amount of threads (5) to achieve the same visibility as having 1 thread of the items of the day. keep in mind this style of selling does not get the free influx of "bumps" from bidding.

while favoring the auction styles of
@Lord Nabin @jrede23 @BrianFreud

In essence, these new rules i do not think will achieve the desired effect. We will still have auction rounds spammed to the top by bids, and will actually be forced to have more threads to achieve the same amount of visibility as we did with fewer threads under the old rules.

There is a lot of truth in this post. I'm only speaking for myself here, but in my rares selling thread (which I planned to use for all of Season 14), I update both the original post and title with every new item that is available for sale. I do not encourage and I would prefer prospective buyers (or buyers that have completed a transaction) to not post in my thread, as it only clutters up my updates to posts that come in addition to bumps or edits to posts.

I maintain one thread even though under these new rules I'd be better off having five threads, as I could more easily keep my posts visible, with 5 bumps a day (one per thread), cluttering up the top posts of the forum at whatever time I choose to bump my posts.

I choose to run one thread for all of my sales because I as a buyer am discouraged from choosing a seller who has a glut of threads- it just doesn't look good. The new rules making it more equitable for sellers to run five threads is a problem- you should never disincentivize users from taking steps to keep your forum less cluttered, which is what these rule changes over the past few weeks seem to be about.

 

[Longtooths]

I wish the Stratics Staff would spend at least the same amount of time they do trying to figure out how to rule and punish as they did how to promote and encourage more people to use the site.

One of the most active parts of the site and you want to waste time instituting rules that affect the most active people. Call me silly but this sounds counter intuitive to me. Just a suggestion but if an action is not liked, how about as a benchmark of what to do, instead of reacting with rules and punishments you consider how to promote and reward the opposite action that you do want on the boards. I would say that if you can not think of a way to do so, the initial action you disliked is not that bad in the first place.

Just my two cents..

PS* what is with the lag between pushing the post button and it actually posting...?

 

[Assia Penryn]

i dont think this is even realistic at this point.

glacial items were deemed legal to sell so people are used to that now
like you said there are hundreds of bug/exploit items (one of brians current auctions is even titled "bugged items", - bugged is synonymous with exploit in 95perenct of cases. Just as an example, the most desirable pre-patch pets were created with by an exploit. and what about exploit items that cant be differentiated from there true server birth counterparts? (like left-handled skull mugs)
there are so many old items that are duped (realistically about triple the numbers noted on manticores list) that this greatly effects the rares trade
the majority of bulk older deed items in the game are duped
europa / tangle cloth

as much as i would like to see obvious dupes being banned from trade, the majority of players probably wouldnt

realisitcally i could only see items that are actually delete on sight in game being barred from the forums
otherwise, creating a list with the input of collectors / merchants and then putting those items to a vote via poll may be the best route to take in regards to this.

I completely agree and its why I made the post I did. It is not fair to the users to put such vague terms.

The duped detection system is still broken in my opinion and even if it is wasn't, it is not feasible logistically to base it off a system that is completely independent of the forums. So I have no problem with you guys wanting to ban "dupes" "exploits" or "illegal" items, but you need to make a comprehensive list of them. Otherwise you are going to be making a lot of infractions thus leading to a loss of users as they get frustrated by not knowing what they can and can not sell.

 

[Scribbles]

Yeah I never really thought even at my "worst" times i was really effecting the forums to much. In my opinion basically what you are saying with the bump rules is that you want less participation from your users. It seems counter productive to me. Of course this is coming from the guy who at one point had 6 updateable threads in the rares forums alone. And I would update them asap all the time. I get you dont want other peoples post to be covered up. Honestly though i feel as though i never miss a single thread in the rares forums even at it highest traffic rate.

Again i have a bit of a biased opinion. Im willing to play ball and see if you guys get the desired effect you want.

 

[Giggles]

I don't think the goal here is to punish active users. The goal is to create a balance between casual sellers and power sellers. It can be rather intimidating to a casual seller when they post a item for sale, and within a few hours its at the bottom of the page because of 3-4 people who have several active threads they just bumped. I remember a time recently when the first 20 posts in the rares trade forum were held by 3 people. That is unreasonable. So how can you still maintain your sales without completely drowning out everyone else? Thats really the main question.

 

[BrianFreud]

then theres the issue of linking to other trade forums. No offense Brian, i know your just trying to get your items / auctions visible like the rest of us, but being able to post in the rares forum with links to other forums to sell armor, non-rares, ingredients etc just (as Mesanna likes to say) opens up a whole other door. its a very grey area. All i can assume is that if other stratics users choose to they will be allowed to link to their traders hall threads armor/spawning items/houses/pets etc in their rares selling posts.

stratics is intimidating enough for most UO players, these rules just seem to add to that.

Re the latter bit, take a look at the old rules (back to 2010) that went on for pages. This is far more succinct and far more lenient.

As for linking, that's always been allowed. Noone says you can't link to any other active auctions/sales threads you're running. A few indeed have. But it's a bit of extra work, and folks often don't bother. It's also a discussion thread that really wasn't intended to have any replies; other than Zandor's question, it'd have already dropped off the front page - I'm not a mod; I can't lock my own thread.

the rules seem to discriminate against the selling styles of myself and:
@de LEET ed @DJ Diddles @Olcher @Scribbles @Promathia @StonewallGL
mainly because adding an item to a list counts as a "bump" these sellers will have to have the full amount of threads (5) to achieve the same visibility as having 1 thread of the items of the day. keep in mind this style of selling does not get the free influx of "bumps" from bidding.

Considering that some were cheating the rules in the past by bumping far more than once per 24 hours, just hiding it by deleting older bumps... I do have to ask, bluntly, why is it that the first take on these rules is to think of ways to circumvent their intent? First, the 1-hour-long auction, then the idea of running 5 sales threads each staggered so that they only bump once a day, but at least one is being bumped every 5 hours... then you wonder why the first attempt at the trade rules was overly onerous? Auctions run, then die quickly once they end. Sales threads can live forever - look at Olcher's especially. Sometimes, you may want to have several unrelated sales threads - consider Assia's for the blackrock boxes, her vendors, and the double ex collection. But if you're running a consolidated sales thread with all your drops listed, there really isn't any reason for that to spread out to more than a single long-running sales thread. Leave those other 4 for any random 1-offs or auctions you feel like running. Again, I'm not a mod; this is my 2 cents, not any kind of official policy. But I just find it odd that literally your first reaction is "how do I break the rules without breaking the rules?"

 

[BrianFreud]

Cross-posting is not linking. Posting the same post to multiple forums is cross-posting.

 

[Smoot]

Cross-posting is not linking. Posting the same post to multiple forums is cross-posting.

@Riyana can you confirm that linking rares forum threads to traders hall threads and shard specific threads is allowed? im asking for myself, i want to utilize this if it is in fact allowed.

 

[Smoot]

Im on the rares forum alot. i havent noticed anyone deleting bumps and posting another.

the reason for thinking of ways to circumvent the rules in this thread is because its for just that, to discuss if these rules will work, and how much room there is to abuse them. This comes back to my original argument that you shouldnt have rules that arent enforced, and you shouldnt find the need to take action on players who are posting withing the rules.

you cant tell a good roof from a bad one on a sunny day, only when it storms.

in short, a good set of rules cant be easily circumvented.

 

[Smoot]

But if you're running a consolidated sales thread with all your drops listed, there really isn't any reason for that to spread out to more than a single long-running sales thread.

the reason is that the best time to sell an event item is right after the event. so you want those new items to be prominent. thats why its better under these rules to post a seperate thread, than to just add the new item to a buried thread.

 

[Longtooths]

just FYI....
Mods can see all deleted posts. Even if you delete a "bump post" ...

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

But I just find it odd that literally your first reaction is "how do I break the rules without breaking the rules?"

the reason for thinking of ways to circumvent the rules in this thread is because its for just that, to discuss if these rules will work, and how much room there is to abuse them. This comes back to my original argument that you shouldnt have rules that arent enforced, and you shouldnt find the need to take action on players who are posting withing the rules.

in short, a good set of rules cant be easily circumvented.

Gotta agree with Smoot on this one. Anytime I am looking to create rules and/or stop a certain behavior (either as a parent, manager or business owner) I begin with the rules themselves. Once I have that draft I always sit back and put on my "nonconformist hat" and look for small loopholes in the rules that people can exploit in order to get around the desired effect of the rules. I mean, let's face it.. the folks who follow the rules will follow the rules as well as the desired effect of the rules.. those who seek to skirt the rules will always try to find subtle things to circumvent the rules.

 

[BrianFreud]

Im on the rares forum alot. i havent noticed anyone deleting bumps and posting another.

the reason for thinking of ways to circumvent the rules in this thread is because its for just that, to discuss if these rules will work, and how much room there is to abuse them. This comes back to my original argument that you shouldnt have rules that arent enforced, and you shouldnt find the need to take action on players who are posting withing the rules.

you dont build a good roof for a sunny day, you build it for when it storms.

in short, a good set of rules cant be easily circumvented.

I think you'd find that deleting bumps and re-bumping far sooner than 1-per-24 was indeed happening. You forget, mods can actually see deleted replies and posts. "Delete" is more like "hide from regular users" after all.

As for your basic premise, I disagree, as, I think, do you yourself. "[A] good set of rules cant be easily circumvented." The more strict the rules, the less easy they are to circumvent. We've seen what stricter rules looked like... and you were the first one to post about them.

This new set of rules is far more lenient and functional for what we all need them to be. Could they be tightened? Sure - how about no bumps at all, or a limit of one auction or WTS post per month, or auctioneers literally not being allowed to answer questions or post about 10 minute rules, etc, because those would be considered "bumps", etc. I know during the Ron Bron-era, I was told by the head moderator at least once that question and discussion threads were no longer allowed in the rares forum, that ONLY WTS and auctions were permitted. I doubt any of those versions of less-easily circumvented rules is a set of rules you would like; nor would I.

Even wierder cases were considered - someone necros an old WTS thread of yours from 2 years ago; these rules don't count that against you.

the reason is that the best time to sell an event item is right after the event. so you want those new items to be prominent. thats why its better under these rules to post a seperate thread, than to just add the new item to a buried thread.

...and this is EXACTLY why you wouldn't want to waste all 5 of your allowed active WTS/auction threads elsewhere. You'd have the one long-lived thread with all your other drops for sale, and still have 4 left over for posting "this just dropped, buy it now!" threads. If you sell, tag the thread Sold, leave the post un-blanked for future reference, and now it quickly falls off the front page and doesn't count against your 5 anymore. If it doesn't sell after a day or two, post a reply to that thread that you've moved that item to your main sales thread. I just suggested to Nexus that a new "Closed" tag be added, so you can mark that thread not sold, but closed for sale, thus it not count against your 5 either.

 

[Smoot]

@BrianFreud im glad your not a RL lawmaker. i dont think your seeing logically how any of this would play out.

all i know, is that before i used 2 concise threads. Sometimes 3 for a highlight item. now to achieve that same effect i will need the full 5 being rotated in and out. And most likely be using a 6th thread for linking to other forums. as a rares purist i dont agree with that, but if it an option now i will be doing that to yield most profitable sales overall.

To be perfectly blunt, Olchers wall of posts was in direct response to be able to compete with your 10plus auctions.

Then, to be able to stay on par i would have to make my own block of threads and keep that block relatively bumped. thats what brought on this whole rules change.

what we are trying to do now is figure out what type of rules would work best for everyone. I just dont see these having that desired effect.

on a side note, i was fine with you having 10 auctions, olcher having 10 threads, and managing my own threads / bumps / added info and items. yes it was a bit frustrating at times but considering its just a video game forum not exactly life changing. it was the staff that decided to change this. this is in no way something personal, its just trying to figure out a solution to what the mods have decided they want to change.

 

[Assia Penryn]

just FYI....
Mods can see all deleted posts. Even if you delete a "bump post" ...

This is accurate. It was possible to see them and a time stamp when I was a moderator as well.


An' yes, I spanked many folks in my day when they would bump them far less than 24 hours, deleting their "bumps". 24 hours is what we typically enforced.

 

[Alexander of ATL.]

I don't think the goal here is to punish active users. The goal is to create a balance between casual sellers and power sellers. It can be rather intimidating to a casual seller when they post a item for sale, and within a few hours its at the bottom of the page because of 3-4 people who have several active threads they just bumped. I remember a time recently when the first 20 posts in the rares trade forum were held by 3 people. That is unreasonable. So how can you still maintain your sales without completely drowning out everyone else? Thats really the main question.

Have them consolidate all threads and can bump freely????? Just a suggestion...

It is already being done by some and it works. It takes away space issues and it allows bumpage. I don't see what is wrong with that...

 

[Captn Norrington]

Have them consolidate all threads and can bump freely????? Just a suggestion...

It is already being done by some and it works. It takes away space issues and it allows bumpage. I don't see what is wrong with that...

We already tried that and that is actually what we prefer that people do.

The problem was 90% of the people we asked to consolidate their threads into 1 or 2 bigger ones, basically told us to shove it and refused. When we asked them again, they told us "you can't make me because it says ___ in the rules so no I refuse to do it".

Technically, they were right that we could not make them consolidate threads in the old rules. Hence the creation of the new rules with the goal that people can't use a loophole to escape any situation.

 

[Captn Norrington]

Im on the rares forum alot. i havent noticed anyone deleting bumps and posting another.

I see it relatively often, since I can see all the deleted bumps still like Assia and Longtooths mentioned.

To be fair, the majority of the deleted bumps don't appear to be done to evade the rules, it looks more like the person was just removing the old bump to clean up their own thread. However a couple people do clearly try to bump, delete the bump, and post a new bump within a few hours for the sole purpose of rule evasion. The ones who do it on purpose are mostly in Traders Hall though, not so much in the rares forum.

 

[Smoot]

I see it relatively often, since I can see all the deleted bumps still like Assia and Longtooths mentioned.

To be fair, the majority of the deleted bumps don't appear to be done to evade the rules, it looks more like the person was just removing the old bump to clean up their own thread. However a couple people do clearly try to bump, delete the bump, and post a new bump within a few hours for the sole purpose of rule evasion. The ones who do it on purpose are mostly in Traders Hall though, not so much in the rares forum.

well yeah ive deleted hundreds of bumps to keep threads clean. and like i said, traders hall is a whole other ball game. good luck trying to achieve any consistent moderation or enforcement of the rules there. comparatively, the rares forum has relatively few issues. as i said i have rarely noticed "overbumping" on the rares fourm. (a few times but not many lately) other than within the last 2 months under the 48 hour rule.

 

[BrianFreud]

@BrianFreud im glad your not a RL lawmaker. i dont think your seeing logically how any of this would play out.

all i know, is that before i used 2 concise threads. Sometimes 3 for a highlight item. now to achieve that same effect i will need the full 5 being rotated in and out. And most likely be using a 6th thread for linking to other forums. as a rares purist i dont agree with that, but if it an option now i will be doing that to yield most profitable sales overall.

To be perfectly blunt, Olchers wall of posts was in direct response to be able to compete with your 10plus auctions.

Then, to be able to stay on par i would have to make my own block of threads and keep that block relatively bumped. thats what brought on this whole rules change.

what we are trying to do now is figure out what type of rules would work best for everyone. I just dont see these having that desired effect.

on a side note, i was fine with you having 10 auctions, olcher having 10 threads, and managing my own threads / bumps / added info and items. yes it was a bit frustrating at times but considering its just a video game forum not exactly life changing. it was the staff that decided to change this. this is in no way something personal, its just trying to figure out a solution to what the mods have decided they want to change.

First, my auction post lasts a week. I even specifically direct "thanks" and such away from the auctions after they end, specifically to get them off the front as quickly as possible once they're no longer relevant.
Olcher's wall of posts lived on the front page never-ending.

What happens when there's some new drop and you guys all are competing to sell it high and first? There's 5 or 10 different posts all trying to sell the same single item. Even worse, for future price checks and reference, some are just are using it as an ad, directing people to PM or ICQ only for sales, then blanking out the post, so there ends up being a post that's literally empty of content sitting on the front page of threads. Multiply that by the fact that most shards were seeming to do their drops from the 20th to the 30th each month, and by 25 shards, and you had this big wall of single item WTS posts from the same 5 to 10 people that flooded off anything else.

When a rares fest is under-way, those same people inevitably complain, however, when there's 3 to 6 fest posts for fest info, event info, vendor reservations, etc.

Second, your own posts don't match your claim: "before i used 2 concise threads. Sometimes 3 for a highlight item". Just for yourself, I don't see 2 consise threads with the occasional third for a "highlight" item. I see 17 threads within the past 28 days, and that's only counting sale threads, not questions, discussions, etc that you started:

• Shackles From King Blackthorn's Dungeon
• Rares on Auction Safe
• Stacked Heads Of Void Beasts
• A Miniature Swords for the Boy's Festival 2016 - on vendor 75m
• Thou Has Been Slimed (ghoul statue) - sold
• Bacon & Beer Brawl 2016 (its a pig)
• Mounted Bust Of The Putrid Daemon Wxvvedicl The White
• Imprisoned Spirits Waiting to Claim an Unsuspeting Body
• Origin 3/29 "Spring Fever 2016"
• Eden, The Sleeping Hellhound Puppy
• Etiolated World Tree Sapling
• Easter Bunnies Resting Beside a Great Lake
• An Ancient Cure (new sonoma mushroom)
• A Fountain Of Blood From Lake Superiors Players
• The Waters of Lost Belema
• Kiss my Blarney Stone 50m
• Drach 3/19 A Symbol of the 1st Anniversary Gift of Aaryl & Slef Nehcard

Let's look at the real numbers: In just the single past month, you've posted 17 sale or auction threads. In the past four months I've posted a total of 14. So, comparatively, who is the wall of posts?

 

[Smoot]

i dont see your point, just saying it how it is. fact of the matter is thats less than half of the items ive put up for sale recently, and the new rules encourage more single item threads, not less. alot of those threads can also be deleted because theyve been added to the 2 main selling threads, or sold. but either way its still only 4 active sales threads in the last 2 weeks.

considering all those threads are within the rules in this discussion thread, which was only posted yesterday, and that some of those threads could be deleted now,if they were in violation of the new rules, but they arent, im just not seeing what your getting at, other than just wanting to maintain your system of 10 auctions at the same time.

all im asking for is an added item not to count as a "bump" to eliminate the need to juggle single item threads.

i think the mods have a good idea of my take on the new rules, i didnt come here to squabble about others posting habits, but to give what was asked, feedback on the new rules.
I do not think these rules will have the intended effect.

that is all, thankyou to the mods for taking the time to ask for community feedback.

 

[Promathia]

I honestly don't have a problem with the updated rules. I have always been fine with 1 bump every 24 hours.

In regards to multiple threads:
I didn't like Brian's auctions taking up multiple threads and dominating the forum just as much as I disliked people I know doing the same thing. Although I view this more as common courtesy thing rather than something that rules should enforce.

*shrugs*

 

[BrianFreud]

all im asking for is an added item not to count as a "bump" to eliminate the need to juggle single item threads.

Regardless of how you interpret the rules, the goal is consolidated threads, rather than single item threads that flood the board. There are times when more than one thread is needed, but it's a 5 cap, not a suggested number you should have active at all times.

You can add or remove items whenever you want to your heart's content. The rule says nothing about that. The rule says:

"Posts announcing the addition or removal of items will also be considered a 'bump', and are subject to the same 1-per-24 hour limit."

That's talking specifically about you adding or removing items *and then posting a reply saying you've done so*. The limit is on the second part, not the first.

 

[Olcher]

The problem was 90% of the people we asked to consolidate their threads into 1 or 2 bigger ones, basically told us to shove it and refused. When we asked them again, they told us "you can't make me because it says ___ in the rules so no I refuse to do it".

When we complained over and over about Brian's auctions you (the admins) didn't care. So what makes you (the admins) think that we'd stop doing the same thing when you asked us? Zero chance. That lenient 'moderate whenever we feel like it' aka preferential treatment rears its ugly face again.

My long term threads were always consolidated to the maximum 40 pictures/post plus and everyone knows this. I've said many times I would even put them in to one thread if I could but you guys either A.) can't figure out your off the shelf software or B.) are afraid of my 100 2kb images. Dial-up users beware!

If you could stop mentioning my name I'd appreciate it because I don't want to be pulled in to this drama thanks.

 

[Old Vet Back Again]

If you could stop mentioning my name I'd appreciate it because I don't want to be pulled in to this drama thanks.

Yea I wouldn't want any more attention drawn to myself either if I were you.

 

[BrianFreud]

My long term threads were always consolidated to the maximum 40 pictures/post plus and everyone knows this. I've said many times I would even put them in to one thread if I could but you guys either A.) can't figure out your off the shelf software or B.) are afraid of my 100 2kb images. Dial-up users beware!

Different management, different rules. As of a day or two ago, as long as the images are remotely stored, the limit is now 100/post.

 

[Merlin]

Thread warning: This post was created for discussion of rules. Please do not start taking personal gripes out on one another.

All of you are valuable traders that our community appreciates and needs. We want your input, but please don't take anything personally or get overly defensive. This is an opportunity for everyone to make their voice heard before rules are finalized.

 

[Scribbles]

honesty here. we are at the most dead ive have ever seen UO and stratics. Do we really need to arbitrarily start enforcing rules to make the people in charge feel important? Im sorry but i see no negative at this point to people bumping threads previous to 48 hours let alone 24 hours. I rarely see any threads that go beyond the first page that have been posted beyond 24 hours anyways. Its not that big of deal. at least to me... i can skip to page two and read a threads i missed. I can see people bumping multiple times and not worry about it. IM sorry for those that think differently but im smart enough to read beyond the "bumped threads" Im absolutely glad that some people care enough to want to police such acts. But honestly i dont see any worth in it at the point in which most threads with in the past 48 hours stay on the first page.

I could totally understand the new/old rules if these threads were so busy that with in 6 hours a thread had gone to the second page of the forums... but that is not the case.

In my humble opinion its not worth the time of the moderators or users to enforce/report such rules.

 

[Riyana]

Thank you all for your responses. Understand that we fully expect there to be a transitional period in which moderators will offer guidance and leniency while people adjust to the changes. In light of the concerns and comments here, the following corrections have been made to this draft:

• The bump restriction does not apply in the last hour of an auction.

has been changed to:

• There is no restriction on the amount of updates within the last hour of an auction.

Allowing excessive bumping for the sake of bumping is not the intent--the intent is too allow auctions the freedom to deal with the inevitable increase in activity at the end of an auction.

• Sale or trade of items that are duped, created via exploit, or illegal to own in game.

has been changed to:

• Sale or trade of items known to be illegal to own in game.

We will be creating a list of items that are known to be illegal in game, and will maintain it for easy reference. This has not been a major issue in the past and we will count on the community to help keep these items known and off the forums, as has long been the practice.


Now to address some specific points:

Can we please be provided with a "list" of the unacceptable items? There are hundred that fit this criteria that are regularly sold on the rares forum.

Good idea. We'll get someone on this ASAP. If you or anyone else would like to help contribute to this list, please let us know.

I may be having another one of my "understanding problems".. but does this effect "price check" or "interest check" type threads that can turn into an auction once the op realizes there is enough interest to actually auction the item off? Is that still allowed? Or should we just start another thread at that time as an auction?

this creates a problem because its currently common practice to "take offers" and then turn the thread into an auction if enough interest in the item has been determined by the seller.

In these cases, the auction would begin when the seller announces that he/she is converting the price/interest check to an auction. If a poster develops a pattern of abusing this to keep more posts up than otherwise would be allowed, then they will be treated as maintaining excessive threads and warned accordingly.

mainly because adding an item to a list counts as a "bump" these sellers will have to have the full amount of threads (5) to achieve the same visibility as having 1 thread of the items of the day. keep in mind this style of selling does not get the free influx of "bumps" from bidding.

all im asking for is an added item not to count as a "bump" to eliminate the need to juggle single item threads.

Adding an item to a pre-existing post does not bump it. Replying to the post does.

There is nothing to be done about auction style posts being pushed to the top--the active participation of multiple community members is not bumping. As auctions are limited in duration and sales can last indefinitely, each style will have its own advantages and disadvantages. Our goal is to balance them

Just a suggestion but if an action is not liked, how about as a benchmark of what to do, instead of reacting with rules and punishments you consider how to promote and reward the opposite action that you do want on the boards. I would say that if you can not think of a way to do so, the initial action you disliked is not that bad in the first place.

We have received a lot of complaints about a small number of people dominating the tops of the trade boards with both long term (sale) and short term (auction) posts. The changes we are making stem from the feedback we've received in various forms from various community members. We are never going to be able to please everyone, but we can try to keep the playing field somewhat level.

We're always on the lookout for Xenforo plugins that will assist various areas of the site, including trade, but until and unless we find something that works well and that the community is willing to adopt, we have to work with what we have. One thing we have done to make it easier to condense some threads is to lift the restrictions on linked images and post length. If you have further ideas for incentivization that do not disincentivize anyone else, we'd love to hear them.

My long term threads were always consolidated to the maximum 40 pictures/post plus and everyone knows this. I've said many times I would even put them in to one thread if I could but you guys either A.) can't figure out your off the shelf software or B.) are afraid of my 100 2kb images. Dial-up users beware!

These restrictions have been lifted.

@Riyana can you confirm that linking rares forum threads to traders hall threads and shard specific threads is allowed? im asking for myself, i want to utilize this if it is in fact allowed.

Allow me to reiterate one of the other rules:

• Sales and auction threads must primarily consist of items consistent with the forum topic.

If you want to post a thread that is topical and reasonable for the forum and also include links to other threads, that is fine.


Thank you all again for your discussion. These rules will be going into effect tomorrow. As stated above, we expect an adjustment period and to guide accordingly while people adjust. We will be monitoring the situation and if adjustments need to be made, they will be.

 

[Smoot]

You may want to clarify if a "warning" gives points. most people assume that a "warning" is just that, no action taken other than a verbal warning.

 

[Captn Norrington]

You may want to clarify if a "warning" gives points. most people assume that a "warning" is just that, no action taken other than a verbal warning.

Yes, all warnings give points. The amount of points for each thing was described in another thread.

I get what you mean, but we didn't choose to call them "warnings" that's what the actual forum software named them. We are unable to change what they are called since they are part of the basic forum software package.

Basically, how it works is that 10 points = a perma ban.

Minor things like bump rule violation or trolling = 1 point

Medium things like personal attacks = 2 points

Extreme things like racism, threats, hacking etc. = 10 points.

The points from a warning expire 1 year after the warning was given (except for perma bans).

Link to the other thread: Maintenance Downtime and Moderation System Revision.

 

[Smoot]

@Captn Norrington

hmm, so its the software that calls it "warnings"

i just know that every "warning" i got i took as just that. I was like, "ok its just a warning it doesnt matter" only one of these "warnings" the mod said it had points associated with it. Only to find out years later that these warnings are Not just warnings. The new rules are more clear, but many may still interpret a warning as nothing more than something to make a mental of, with no real effect on the users account.

 

[Captn Norrington]

@Captn Norrington

hmm, so its the software that calls it "warnings"

i just know that every "warning" i got i took as just that. I was like, "ok its just a warning it doesnt matter" only one of these "warnings" the mod said it had points associated with it. Only to find out years later that these warnings are Not just warnings. The new rules are more clear, but many may still interpret a warning as nothing more than something to make a mental of, with no real effect on the users account.

Yeah, I wish we could change the name so people would be able to understand what they are more clearly. This is what your post looks like to me for example, see on the bottom of the post there is a button that says "warn" next to the delete button. We can't change stuff like that so are forced to keep using the name the developer of the forum software picked.

 

[Smoot]

@Captn Norrington

you could call it something different tho. no one sees that button except the mods.

"violation" would be more clear that youve done something that was actually against the rules.

 

[BrianFreud]

@Captn Norrington

you could call it something different tho. no one sees that button except the mods.

"violation" would be more clear that youve done something that was actually against the rules.

I personally don't have that button, nor do I have any warning points at the moment, so I can't double check this. But if I remember right, for anyone who does have any warning points, on your own profile page, you can see a new "Warnings" tab which is where you now would be able to see any warning points you have active. So there is at least the one place that the word "Warning" is exposed to the general user.

 

[Olcher]

What about a separate sub-forum specifically for auctions? Then there wouldn't be issues with them being updated/bumped a lot and 'competing' with normal selling posts and rares discussions. Rules could be more relaxed there for them.

 

[Money Bags Mcgee]

I was discussing with a few people last night along the same topic as Olcher. Our thoughts were that em iems should have their own sub forum. i believe that would alleviate the forums issues if done properly.

 

[Smoot]

thats an interesting idea, but considering EM rares account for about 70 percent of the threads on the rares forum, it would make that "sub-forum" the main forum. and would not solve the "bump" competition that the mods seem to be concerned about (which is why the rules were changed in the first place)

having aucitons in a seperate area would keep the the rares forum as the main place to discuss and sell rares, would keep people coming to it, while also allowing the "rares auction forum" to thrive, because people like auctions. I think if it were split EM rare / other youd lose alot of of people who might not actively search for non-EM rares, but bid on/ or discuss when something catches the eye.

splitting off auctions seems to be more logical, in that it accomplishes the staffs goals, while keeping both as high traffic areas.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

I mean no disrespect to anyone at all by asking this.. I am just curious and can't figure it out for myself.. that being said...

Why would anyone who runs/owns a website/forum be trying to implement things to decrease traffic/posts?